Item sold to EU via eMarketplace. Buyer made Change of Mind return. Do I refund original P&P?

[Deleted member 335362]

Hi, as per title. Buyer has paid return postage as it's a Change of Mind return.

The return was made after 18 days of receipt of item by buyer.

I've received the item back.

The e-marketplace seemingly want me to refund the outgoing postage as well as the item price.

Where do l stand on this with regard to UK law? I'm fairly certain even within the UK, l don't need to cover original outgoing P&P for change of mind returns. Do l? And what of international / EU returns?

Google was almost unshakeably convinced I am trying to return something to an EU seller.
With much tweaking of search query, l managed to get Google AI to state the EU buyer can (or cannot) get the original outgoing P&P refunded, and in another search session, l was told that after 14 days, the EU buyer cannot get the outgoing P&P refunded.

I've search the gov.uk pages and it seriously appears there's no discussion about this, like nobody thought this would ever happen?


Contingent question:
Will / when will customs pursue me for the reimport tax and duty? Or am l in the clear seeing as the parcel has been delivered without any extra stickers attached?
Must l keep the scruffy CN23 customs slip that was attached to the parcel, completed by the buyer, as evidence in order to get any reimport fees refunded?

 

[Newchodge]

Hi, as per title. Buyer has paid return postage as it's a Change of Mind return.

The return was made after 18 days of receipt of item by buyer.

I've received the item back.

The e-marketplace seemingly want me to refund the outgoing postage as well as the item price.

Where do l stand on this with regard to UK law? I'm fairly certain even within the UK, l don't need to cover original outgoing P&P for change of mind returns. Do l? And what of international / EU returns?

Google was almost unshakeably convinced I am trying to return something to an EU seller.
With much tweaking of search query, l managed to get Google AI to state the EU buyer can (or cannot) get the original outgoing P&P refunded, and in another search session, l was told that after 14 days, the EU buyer cannot get the outgoing P&P refunded.

I've search the gov.uk pages and it seriously appears there's no discussion about this, like nobody thought this would ever happen?


Contingent question:
Will / when will customs pursue me for the reimport tax and duty? Or am l in the clear seeing as the parcel has been delivered without any extra stickers attached?
Must l keep the scruffy CN23 customs slip that was attached to the parcel, completed by the buyer, as evidence in order to get any reimport fees refunded?

What do your terms and conditions say about refunding original P & P?

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Hello. Of course that would answer the question pretty much.

I'm unsure what the eMarketplace policy is. I cannot locate their policy page. My own bespoke policy on returns just states customer pays return post for no-fault returns.

> So, again, what is the UK law on this?

> Also, should I expect customs charges even after delivery of the return? If so, should I preserve the tattered CN23 from the returned parcel?

It's okay if you don't know, but l really do need to know these two things, as opposed to workarounds i.e. notwithstanding my own T&C.

 

[fisicx]

Google was almost unshakeably convinced I am trying to return something to an EU seller.
With much tweaking of search query, l managed to get Google AI to state the EU buyer can (or cannot) get the original outgoing P&P refunded, and in another search session, l was told that after 14 days, the EU buyer cannot get the outgoing P&P refunded.

Stop asking Google and expecting the AI to be helpful and accurate.

The answer is in the terms on the marketplace you are using. If you can’t find the terms on their site ask them.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Stop asking Google and expecting the AI to be helpful and accurate.

The answer is in the terms on the marketplace you are using. If you can’t find the terms on their site ask them.

I have no tradition of expecting Google AI to be accurate.
I was not expecting it to be accurate, even as a once-off user of Google AI.

Stop talking down to people. I know it's a forum and hence cosy and safe. But you will, l'm certain, get your comeuppance in real life somehow because what goes around comes around. Something people like you find oh so funny until it no longer is.

Don't twist an unremarkable factual query into some personal crap.

If you don't know the answer then you are definitively shitposting and stop making the obvious suggestion of finding the marketplace's policy page, Captain Obvious. To the average-IQ, intelligent people and sub-normal IQs all seem silly, don't they? Therefore my OP is just silly right?

 

[Deleted member 335362]

I'm gonna get me some effective website design. Soon. So that l can sell via my own site.

 

[Newchodge]

I have no tradition of expecting Google AI to be accurate.
I was not expecting it to be accurate, even as a once-off user of Google AI.

Stop talking down to people. I know it's a forum and hence cosy and safe. But you will, l'm certain, get your comeuppance in real life somehow because what goes around comes around. Something people like you find oh so funny until it no longer is.

Don't twist an unremarkable factual query into some personal crap.

If you don't know the answer then you are definitively shitposting and stop making the obvious suggestion of finding the marketplace's policy page, Captain Obvious. To the average-IQ, intelligent people and sub-normal IQs all seem silly, don't they? Therefore my OP is just silly right?

Please remember that all forum users should be treated with respect.

 

[Newchodge]

I'm gonna get me some effective website design. Soon. So that l can sell via my own site.

My understanding is that the customer must be aware, before placing the order, if they would be responsible for P & P costs, so you need to establish what the website from which they bought states in its TCs.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

And yes I did ask them and they hadn't a clue, but I shouldn't have to explain that as the q is ultimately NOT ABOUT ME, it's a Q that is a Q in itself, it's only shitposting know-nothings that will try to make it about ME and therefore get THEIR word in. Which is most unhelpful. Which is why l said: It's okay if you don't know the answer, meaning don't post if you don't know the answer.

I'm not even talking directly about the marketplace. I'm asking about UK LAW. Regardless the marketplace or my own situation.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Yes, so address me with respect. No i have no past bad blood with that person.
But i sensed from the outset my thread will be torn apart by shitposting because the answer to the actual question is inaccessible.

So people will try to answer a different question. Or fault me. And then conclude my question is obviously my fault. So I must change, I must reform as a person. There you go that's the thread answered. Onto the next thread right? That's how regulars behave on every flipping forum. You think you have to answer every thread don't you? And it's just meaningless shitposting.

Stop making obvious statements about T&C.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, so address me with respect. No i have no past bad blood with that person.
But i sensed from the outset my thread will be torn apart by shitposting because the answer to the actual question is inaccessible.

So people will try to answer a different question.

Stop making obvious statements about T&C.

I have answered your question.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

I have answered your question.

No, you have NOT.

There were 2 questions, none of which are answered and the more you write, the further from an objective answer this gets:

FOR POSTERITY, THESE WERE THE 2 QUESTIONS, WHICH REGULARS, AS ON EVERY FORUM, TURNED INTO A LOAD OF PERSONAL CRAP WHERE I'M THE IDIOT THAT DID IDIOTIC THINGS AND THEREFORE IT'S MY OWN FAULT FOR KNOWING NOTHING, JOB DONE, ONTO THE NEXT THREAD!:

Where do l stand on this with regard to UK law? I'm fairly certain even within the UK, l don't need to cover original outgoing P&P for change of mind returns. Do l? And what of international / EU returns?

Google was almost unshakeably convinced I am trying to return something to an EU seller.
With much tweaking of search query, l managed to get Google AI to state the EU buyer can (or cannot) get the original outgoing P&P refunded, and in another search session, l was told that after 14 days, the EU buyer cannot get the outgoing P&P refunded.

I've search the gov.uk pages and it seriously appears there's no discussion about this, like nobody thought this would ever happen?


Contingent question:
Will / when will customs pursue me for the reimport tax and duty? Or am l in the clear seeing as the parcel has been delivered without any extra stickers attached?
Must l keep the scruffy CN23 customs slip that was attached to the parcel, completed by the buyer, as evidence in order to get any reimport fees refunded?

 

[Newchodge]

No, you have NOT.

There were 2 questions, none of which are answered and the more you write, the further from an objective answer this gets:

FOR POSTERITY, THESE WERE THE 2 QUESTIONS, WHICH REGULARS, AS ON EVERY FORUM, TURNED INTO A LOAD OF PERSONAL CRAP WHERE I'M THE IDIOT THAT DID IDIOTIC THINGS AND THEREFORE IT'S MY OWN FAULT FOR KNOWING NOTHING, JOB DONE, ONTO THE NEXT THREAD!:

Where do l stand on this with regard to UK law? I'm fairly certain even within the UK, l don't need to cover original outgoing P&P for change of mind returns. Do l? And what of international / EU returns?

Google was almost unshakeably convinced I am trying to return something to an EU seller.
With much tweaking of search query, l managed to get Google AI to state the EU buyer can (or cannot) get the original outgoing P&P refunded, and in another search session, l was told that after 14 days, the EU buyer cannot get the outgoing P&P refunded.

I've search the gov.uk pages and it seriously appears there's no discussion about this, like nobody thought this would ever happen?


Contingent question:
Will / when will customs pursue me for the reimport tax and duty? Or am l in the clear seeing as the parcel has been delivered without any extra stickers attached?
Must l keep the scruffy CN23 customs slip that was attached to the parcel, completed by the buyer, as evidence in order to get any reimport fees refunded?

My understanding is that the customer must be aware, before placing the order, if they would be responsible for P & P costs,

Where do l stand on this with regard to UK law?

 

[Deleted member 335362]

As explained, those are in-house regulations whereas I was asking about UK law. Read the OP.

You're even quoting me asking about UK law in your rebuttal.

In fact, please, leave me alone. I don't wish to speak to you.

 

[Newchodge]

As explained, those are in-house regulations whereas I was asking about UK law. Read the OP.

My understanding of UK law is that the customer must be aware, before placing the order, if they would be responsible for P & P costs,

 

[Deleted member 335362]

As explained;
1. I don't know the marketplace's policy
2. The marketplace themselves could not locate the policy (so far)
3. The question remains unanswered: What is the UK law on refunding the outgoing postage. The UK law on that. Not the UK law on customer being informed of UK law. I honestly don't know how you can still be twisting the OP and l have specifically asked you not to communicate further with me.

 

[Newchodge]

l have specifically asked you not to communicate further with me.

Really?

 

[Karimbo]

I had a change of mind return from a customer from ireland. it was silly. I never planned to sell to them, my website ranks organially in europe and get the odd EU sales. Honestly find it a chore because extra customs froms I need to fill out.

Had a customer buy something for £20, plus £9 postage, so they paid £29 total. They had a change of mind and returned it, they paid €10 to return and I refunded them £20 for the item.

I dont even know why they bothered returning it, just give it to someone else who can make use of it. In their mind they cut their losses and got £10 back.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Post #14, and also note, fisicx's response was calculated to cause distress.

I also have a litany of abuse (malicious communications) directed against me on another screen name which was not banned because I never responded aggressively.

You're very lucky I don't sue you, and I don't mean for this thread, but the other thread on another screen name.

I'm not shooting the breeze either. The malice directed at me, by people including moderators was severe and blameworthy and flouted my requests for them to desist.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

I had a change of mind return from a customer from ireland. it was silly. I never planned to sell to them, my website ranks organially in europe and get the odd EU sales. Honestly find it a chore because extra customs froms I need to fill out.

Had a customer buy something for £20, plus £9 postage, so they paid £29 total. They had a change of mind and returned it, they paid €10 to return and I refunded them £20 for the item.

I dont even know why they bothered returning it, just give it to someone else who can make use of it. In their mind they cut their losses and got £10 back.

Thank you. I'm guessing UK law supports you. I was just wondering what the specific line in the UK online selling regulations was.

If you could please direct me to it before they shut this thread down

 

[Deleted member 335362]

I'm looking for a specific line in UK online selling regulations that addresses refunding the original P&P paid by customer for domestic and EU sales each. @Karimbo (thank you my good man)

And moderators: please, this is all l'm asking. Don't berate me. Don't keep talking to me. Don't make it about this or that marketplace, and what the customer don't know they know but they should know bla bla bla. I can do without this utter rubbish from unhelpful people.

 

[AlanJ1]

Post #14, and also note, fisicx's response was calculated to cause distress.

I also have a litany of abuse (malicious communications) directed against me on another screen name which was not banned because I never responded aggressively.

You're very lucky I don't sue you, and I don't mean for this thread, but the other thread on another screen name.

I'm not shooting the breeze either. The malice directed at me, by people including moderators was severe and blameworthy and flouted my requests for them to desist.

Why are you still here then? You clearly have issue with this forum / thread.
You have absolutley blown this whole thread out of proportion.

Someone stated asking about the sites T&Cs and you went ape however they trump literally anything you have/say. Some sites say check the sellers returns policy, some will have overarching returns everyone adheres too.

There's a tonne of further questions that can be asked to get the answer as you may be able to "reimport" the item without having to pay customs duty/VAT as it's already been paid.
Did you use IOSS scheme or was it a normal decleration?

 

[fisicx]

There is no specific line in UK law. Everything depends on the terms and conditions of the marketplace.

If there are no terms you may struggle to argue that postage should not be refunded.

The distance selling regulations just say you have to offer a refund. They don’t tell you what should be refunded. For example, some online store charge a restocking fee. This is all set out in the terms.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

There is no specific line in UK law. Everything depends on the terms and conditions of the marketplace.

If there are no terms you may struggle to argue that postage should not be refunded.

The distance selling regulations just say you have to offer a refund. They don’t tell you what should be refunded. For example, some online store charge a restocking fee. This is all set out in the terms.

OK thank you. I will have to investigate with the CAB.

Sorry for raging at you, but it was quite upsetting to be sidetracked. And yes l did have in mind to sue this forum as l consider it a business entity and I'm within the statute of limitations.

However, l have also promised myself to never sue for personal upset, I just consider it bad form.

Anyway thank you for finally trying to answer the q.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Might as well delete this thread tbh, it''s too ugly

 

[fisicx]

The CAB can’t help. All they can do is point you in the direction of the DSR.

You won’t ever get a legal answer about this because the marketplace sets the terms.

I’d just refund the postage and find another marketplace to sell your products.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

I'd be happy to refund the postage as it wasn't a huge amount but it sets a mean precedent. No fault return yet seller pays international postage. It's a once in-5-years event for me hence l'm unsure what to do, in fact it's probably the first ever experience of this (international, no-fault return).

Also l'm still unclear about UK law even on UK no-fault returns. In fact I'm certain UK sellers sometimes make postage a separate fee instead of all inc., due to it being legal to withhold postage for no-fault domestic returns.

I wish there was a clear ruling on this.

If there were a UK legal regulation on refunding outgoing postage for no-fault returns then, regardless what the marketplace stipulates, l can always resort to legal measures if it gets out of hand e.g. someone attacks me and forces 5 international refunds for 20kg items (like l say, this is probably my first ever no-fault, so l'm only talking hypothetically about potentially being attacked).

As for the marketplace, they stopped replying when i asked them to show me their policy. The agents themselves were clueless. I have to try again later today.

 

[fisicx]

You won’t ever get a ruling on this due to the nature of the business.

It all comes back to the terms and conditions.

If this a concern, don’t sell overseas or make it clear on your checkout that postage will not be refunded.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Apparently not so.

The CAB directed me to this:

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

These Regulations implement most provisions of Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 on consumer rights, amending Council Directive 93/13/EEC and Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive...

www.legislation.gov.uk

The CAB insist that according to the above, l will need to refund outgoing postage, at the standard rate even if express was selected by buyer (i.e. it's my prerogative if l want to refund express outgoing delivery).



Regulation 34 is disheartening tbh:

EMPHASIS IS ON NO-FAULT RETURNS:
33.—(1) If a contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1)—

(a)the cancellation ends the obligations of the parties to perform the contract, and

(b)regulations 34 to 38 apply.

(2) Regulations 34 and 38 also apply if the consumer withdraws an offer to enter into a distance or off-premises contract.


IN WHICH CASE, SELLER REFUNDS OUTOGING POSTAGE IT SEEMS:

34.—(1) The trader must reimburse all payments, other than payments for delivery, received from the consumer, subject to paragraph (10).

[PARAGRAPH 10 DEALS WITH DAMAGED / ALTERED PRODUCTS]

(2) The trader must reimburse any payment for delivery received from the consumer, unless the consumer expressly chose a kind of delivery costing more than the least expensive common and generally acceptable kind of delivery offered by the trader.

(3) In that case, the trader must reimburse any payment for delivery received from the consumer up to the amount the consumer would have paid if the consumer had chosen the least expensive common and generally acceptable kind of delivery offered by the trader.



Importantly: I am unclear as to whether this applies to international / EU trade, i.e. no-fault returns from EU.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

You won’t ever get a ruling on this due to the nature of the business.

It all comes back to the terms and conditions.

If this a concern, don’t sell overseas or make it clear on your checkout that postage will not be refunded.

As i say, this is a rare event, and my wider business strategy (I am trying to stop trading to get a PhD instead) is way, way of course. The thread is only about UK regulations.

Admittedly I'm still unclear if they apply to a no fault return from abroad i.e. EU. {And why the UK gov't uses Boney M as a favicon for this.}

But at least we've now established, contrary to what some were saying, that there is indeed a written law on this.

 

[Deleted member 335362]

From the associated Explanatory Memorandum, l would infer that it can extend to no-fault returns from at least the EU, but seeing as a pre-Brexit date of 2008 is given for the connection to EU law, it could just be that EU was applicable only then, but now, it is as per section 5.1, only applicable to UK:

4. Legislative Context
4.1 The instrument is being made to implement the UK’s obligations under the EU
Consumer Rights Directive (2001/83/EU). A Transposition Note is attached. In
general, a copy-out approach to transposition has been taken.
4.2 The Consumer Rights Directive was considered by the House of Commons
European Scrutiny Committee on 5 November 2008, (published in 38th Report HC 16-
xxxiv 2007-08), in January 2011 (published in 13th Report HC 428-xii 2010-12) and in
June 2011 (published in 34th Report HC 428-xxx 2010-12).
4.3 The Lords European Union Committee Sub-Committee G (Social policy and
consumer affairs) published its report on the Directive on 15th July 2009 (EU Consumer
Rights Directive: getting it right 18th Report HL Paper 126 2008-09). The Report was
debated in the House of Lords on 23 October 2009, (HL Debates Vol 713 c923-950).
5. Territorial Extent and Application
5.1 This instrument applies to all of the United Kingdom.
6. European Convention on Human Rights
The instrument is subject to negative resolution procedure, but does make some
consequential amendments to primary legislation. The instrument is considered to be
compatible with the Convention rights

 

[Deleted member 335362]

Btw if it applies to international no-fault returns, then a terrible precedent is set: without inflicting criminal damage, a wealthy entity (say, an oligarch?) could wreck a small business and keep their hands clean. They pay return postage, but the small UK business loses hard by refunding outgoing international. As I say, no criminal damage, no crime committed, these would be no fault returns x 100, death by 100 cuts. Of course the cosmos is a threatening place, but this particular one doesn't seem justifiable to me, it feels like a loophole that needs closing, if indeed it's true that it extends to international / EU returns, when we've left the EU. Thank you.

 

[Ozzy]

Locking the thread now it's calmed down